Adding my two cents into the “disappointed emergent” conversation.

So, every few months we manage to find one post and it creates some massive waves around the emergent/ing blogosphere. We (at this point in time I speak for emergenT) seem to really like the posts that have to do with emergent dying. I wrote one of those myself (unfortunetely all the comments were lost when I transitioned over to disqus, a rather unfortunate event, there were some good comments there).

The flavor of the month this time? “The Great Disappointment” by Nick Fiedler, of  “The Nick and Josh Podcast” fame.  Nick’s been out of the country lately, and was disappointed with the lack of change within the emerging movement since he’s been gone. And who can blame him? While the change has seemed rather large to me, I can see from another vantage point, that of one who has been part of this conversation far longer than I, where it wouldn’t seem like much change has come.

Beyond just this one post, we have some interesting “waves” working their way around the emergent/ing blogosphere, but there are really two (perhaps three) sets of accusations being lofted.

The first, which you can see run a bit through Nick’s post, and then a bit harsher through Josh’s response, is “The ‘leaders’ of the ‘movement’ have failed us, they have sold out, they blog/write/speak for money.” (I may be considered one of them, as I do use advertising on my blog, but I would hope that my readers understand my advertising is to help pay for hosting fees, and I don’t even make enough to cover those!) My response to this argument (if I’m not considered one of the sellouts… though I was never, and will never be, a leader in the/this movement): They aren’t the leaders anymore.

Harsh? Probably.

This conversation should have never turned into a money making opportunity, but it did. I understand the desire to make a little money off something you enjoy, but you lose a fair bit of prophetic ability when you start relying on sponsors to support you. It cuts off your ability to speak out, it, to use Josh’s words, neuters you. Game over.

But, on to my point. They aren’t the leaders anymore. (On a seperate issue, who “they” are is up for debate, I probably wouldn’t lump McLaren into that pot) New leaders will/have emerged, and the fuel that keeps us going, our networking ability, has continued without those leaders. (Forgive me for falling into a bit of “us vs them” mentality, I still consider “them” part of “us” but feel that “they” are not the leaders, that’s all).

We knew this moment would come. We’ve been talking about it for a while. I remember all those posts about what happens when “the emerging church” becomes sustainable and loses it’s ability to speak prophetically. The solution? We acknowledge this has happened, but continue to embrace new “leaders” that will continue to speak prohpetically. Leaders who would refuse that term.

On the other hand we have this whole “new crowd” vs “old crowd” thing going on. (blog posts on this here and here, original comment that started this here) I don’t know what that’s all about. In fact having to use the terms “new crowd” and “old crowd” when talking about emergent pisses me off. I guess I’m part of the new crowd, I’ve only been part of the “conversation” for two years now, but I’ve looked up to and respected those who have held this conversation for longer. I’ve learned from them, I’ve hoped for patience from them as I rehash things they’ve already covered, and I’ve hoped that they’d keep me under their wings and offer a little protection as I ask the questions I have never been allowed to ask.

For two years I’ve gotten that, and it’s been great.

Now you wanna bring in new vs old?

Sorry, but that won’t work with me.

We (the emerging church) have always accepted new guys into the fold, this was never ment to be members only club, and if someone acted out of hand they weren’t rejected, they were loved. Now you want to start talking about new guys pushing you out of the circle? What the hell, we don’t even like cirlces here, and if we do draw them, we make them so effing big we put people in them that don’t want to be.

To all the (other?) new guys: You’re welcome here, I’ll make some room at my table, we’ll call it the “kid’s table” it was always more fun there anyways. Besides, I think we have some good people willing to sit at the kids table already.

A few notes before I close

I mentioned before, emergent can die. If this movement ends, we’ll carry on. My cohort friends will keep meeting, I’ll keep working on the communal theology project, I’ll keep networking via the blogosphere. It doesn’t end with the leaders, it wasn’t their movement to begin with. And for my official input on the topic: Emergent is not dead, nor do I think this will kill it, we’ll move on, we’ll keep embracing the new guys, and we’ll keep working for change in the mainstream.

EDIT:

Ok, maybe Tony Jones is still a leader.

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  • I agree about the new vs. old. That makes me very uncomfortable and is, I think, counter-intuitive to the emergent ethos, not to mention the way of Jesus. So I join you in rejecting that categorically.

    But I also think that Josh has a point. And as much as I want to say that the unholy trinity of McLaren, Pagitt, and Jones are no longer the leaders in the movement I think perception among many people is quite different. Whether they like it or not they are "leaders" and the "face" of the movement from a larger public point of view. Again, that may be different for us, but on the outside, they are the ones to watch. So I think we have a perception problem.

    That being said, this is where my beef comes in. I feel like these "leaders," especially Tony and Doug are still stuck on the same conversations and spinning their wheels on the same critiques of traditional evangelicalism, the young, restless, and reformed, etc. I don't think that is useful anymore and I think it tends to mirror across the spectrum of the conversation with some notable exceptions. So I think it's time to set our subversive edge to something else and recast our prophetic vision.

    Another point, while some of Josh's language makes me a little uncomfortable, I do think he has a point about emergent popularization. And I don't say that to shun new folks. I say that because there is a tension between the fringes, and the center -- and various points between. We all have to figure out what works for us and where we are called to be, but I think Leonard Sweet has a point when he says that "a move to the center is a move away from Jesus." So I think he always need that critical finger pointed at us reminding us of the margins.
  • It sounds like there is an assumption here that when a movement grows, it unavoidably moves to the center. That "mainstream" in terms of numbers is immutably married to "mainstream" in doctrine.

    a) Emergence isn't anything like mainstream in any sense of the word, regardless of how much membership seems to have grown recently. The overwhelming majority of Christianity still regards this conversation as a heretical splinter sect.

    b) If by some miracle what we're all talking about is a good idea, how on Earth can it possibly be a bad thing if more and more people discover that it is a good idea? Does their discovery of it somehow negate its value by moving the idea from the fringe to the middle? That's a shift of demographics, not a shift of ideology or doctrine. The meaning of the conversation can remain radical no matter how many people join in.

    To use a mundane example: If, in 2000, Ralph Nader had, instead of getting 4% of the vote, gotten 74% of the vote, would that popular groundswell of support somehow transformed his political platform from one or radical politics to one of centrist politics? Of course not.

    Yes, had that happened he would have then faced massive pressure to -become- centrist. And so yes, emergence needs to resist the pull back to mediocrity as critical mass makes radicalism difficult to maintain. But if maintaining a radical edge is the goal, then how can it be a bad thing if there are people who remain in the place where it began, rehashing those conversations for the people (in or out) who still don't get it? If they are rehashing conversations, the conversations they are rehashing are the radical beginning of the movement that everyone seems to be lamenting the loss of. I don't follow. If there are still people on the outside arguing about how this position is incorrect, then it isn't like Tony's stuck in a place of -comfort-, neh? It looks a whole lot to me like he's doing his best to keep it real, doing his best to hold the party line against the massive crush of pressure from outside to give it up. I have a really hard time seeing that as a problem.

    It seems like there is this assumption that keeping it real means being always in motion. Moving from one set of ideas and actions to the next, never repeating, never still, always restless and eager for something novel. That's a trap. Look at the history of 20th Century art. The quest for novelty is a trap. It leads to "art" that consists of basketballs floating in an aquarium half full of water. Why? Because no one had ever done it before.

    We should never confuse novel for radical. Jesus wasn't Jesus either because he was radical or because he was novel. Jesus was Jesus because he lived a life of love in service to everyone he met. Obviously, any faith conversation has to be self-critical. I don't hear anyone advocating an abandonment of critique. But any faith conversation centered around Jesus has to voice that critique with love, not with "I don't care if its selfish, I don't want to help". If that's what being a radical, old skool, emergent Christian is, I don't want to be one, or know one.
  • Chadholtz
    Blake,
    What do you think the new "edge" is that we should be engaged in and with? I agree with you that the critiquing of classic evangelicalism is getting old. Some of the stuff I have heard from Tony lately only makes me think he is what many anti-emergents claim many of us to be: malcontent yuppies who hate authority. His bashing of denominations, as you know, made me very concerned (on my blog are two posts: The Emerging Mess and The Need for "Sinful" Denominations") My concern was not so much that he doesn't care for denominations (that's fine), but that he would set up an "us" vs. "them" dichotomy between himself (and by this, all things emergent) and those of us within denominations. This, to me, seems like a regress from what makes emerging theology so compelling to me: it's inclusiveness.

    Thanks, Matt, for this post. Good stuff.

    peace,
    Chad
    www.chadholtz.wordpress.com
  • Chad, that's an excellent question.

    I know you have taken Tony to task in depth on the denomination/ordination think and I think both you and he make some good points. I tend to think the problem is not with authority per se, but rather the way(s) in which authority is channeled. Though I (and you) are part of a tradition that uses a different approach, I am really drawn to the radically decentralized and collaborative way of channeling power and authority in a more egalitarian manner. Now, I know that gets really hairy really quick when it comes to things like ordination and I'm to quite sure where I find myself there. But that's neither here nor there for this thread.

    What should we do next? I haven't really fleshed this out much (maybe that's potential blog post), but one idea that I have is engaging the "edge" with hardcore liberal fundamentalists (yes, I think there are two kinds) who tend to think they have a monopoly on the prophetic voice. Because of its evangelical roots, I think Emergent has naturally had to deal with one side of the spectrum first, and that's good. But I'd like to see some serious dialogue and critique on the other side, because I think it can be just a myopic.

    I don't know, just thinking out loud there.
  • Chadholtz
    Blake,
    The "edge" you describe here (at least in part) is one I am greatly interested in exploring.
    I'm curious if your take on "hardcore liberal" fundies is similar to my own. When I hear that I hear a description of a church gutted of any meaty Christology. It's another form of the United Way dressed in a steeple (and the United Way does its mission better). I think emergent xianity appeals to this spectrum because it is more experiential. The problem, as I see it, at least here in the West, is that where Kantian philosophy rules the day, our autonomous, personal experiences become our god. This is where I see liberal fundies hanging out the most. Without a historical Christ we can pick and choose what we want from the buffet of the "new" emerging experience.

    Perhaps I am not speaking to anything you were thinking about. But thanks for provoking this in me :)

    peace,
    Chad
  • This is something else I haven't really fleshed out at length yet, but I'd definitely be on board with you concerning Christology.
  • "So, every few months we manage to find one post and it creates some massive waves around the emergent/ing blogosphere."

    So true. Haha.
  • John D'Elia
    As an outsider (denominational guy) I have appreciated both the impact of the Emergent movement and its honest self-reflection. See my comment at http://ministryintheuk.blogspot.com/2009/06/im-...
  • Matt said: "If this movement ends, we’ll carry on. My cohort friends will keep meeting, I’ll keep working..."

    That's true. We'll keep meeting, and hoisting a pint as we discuss our "dangerous ideas," and challenging each others' faith, and lifting each other up in prayer, even if Emergent Village disappears.
  • Very very interesting post..I like this one. gotta bookmark this one.

    Cheers,
    sweethomeimprove.com
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